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Is the Lack of a Higher Death Toll the Real Tragedy of COVID-19? An Interview with Stephen Jenkinson

May 4, 2020 By scottdm 16 Comments

Be preparedThis blogpost comes with a “trigger warning.”  For most, the last 60 days have been witness to the complete disruption of daily life.  Many people have died — nearly 250,000 worldwide, 70,000 in the United States — from a virus that the majority of us had never heard of just three, short months ago.  Looking forward, humanity seems to be left with only stark and frightening choices between degrees of death and economic devastation.  Given these realities, it is perfectly understandable if you would rather ignore this post announcing my interview of Stephen Jenkinson.

If you don’t know him, Stephen is teacher, storyteller, palliative care worker, and author of the award-winning book, Die Wise.  I happened to read it back in 2016, right after it was released.  Of his work, Stephen observes, “It’s not really a crowd pleaser.”  Neither does his subject matter “submit to being clever, coy, or especially ironic — all the high water marks of casual conversation in urban centers.”  As the title of his book indicates, he talks about death.

Jenkinson’s thesis?  We are death phobic in the extreme, a culture that not only doesn’t believe in, but is actually hostile toward endings.  We hide away our elderly, spend our final days separated from family, isolated in hospitals, talk euphemistically about transitions rather than the realities of no longer existing.  This fact and this fact alone, he argues, has tremendous consequences for how we live and go about our daily lives.

I reached out a little over a week ago, asking if he would agree to an interview about how our culture’s attitude toward death might be shaping the North American response to the COVID-19 outbreak.  From the concentration of deaths in “nursing homes,” breathless reports of “promising treatments” and a vaccine, the championing of healthcare professionals (while many are losing their jobs), and the media’s relentless (and scientifically uninformative) reporting of “hot spots” and “death counts,” it seemed to me we were dancing around the subject.

I’ve done a lot of interviews over the years, but none like this one.  Several times, I had goosebumps.  I was also concerned.  Was Stephen’s direct and unflinching discussion too much?  I actually asked several colleagues to watch and offer feedback before agreeing to post:

  • U.S. based Psychologist Randy Moss said, “Jenkinson’s calm, yet passionate exegesis about the pandemic exposes our collective ignorance about death while inviting us to think deeply about how to go forward.”
  • Long-time friend and therapist, Michele Weiner-Davis called the interview, “fascinating, poetic, and provocative.”
  • Swedish colleague Patrik Ulander remarked, “it was a handful, kept me awake at 4:30 this morning.  His take is so fundamental and not even really about the corona virus, but instead about us denying the only thing we’re really sure about: we’re all going to die.”

So, over to you.  If you do decide to watch, PLEASE leave a comment (here and on youtube).

Until next time,

Scott

Scott D. Miller, Ph.D.
Director, International Center for Clinical Excellence

P.S.:  In case you didn’t see it, here’s an interview I did two weeks ago with a CCU physician on the frontlines of the COVID-19 outbreak.  As you will see, it affirms and extends much of what Stephen Jenkinson advises, while simultaneously putting a face to the challenges we face as a culture in the near future.

Filed Under: Feedback Informed Treatment - FIT

Comments

  1. Asta Sillanpää says

    May 5, 2020 at 12:55 pm

    Doble-edged sword. On the other hand we want to live like never dying. On the other side we want an easy and quick death. After working years in hospital I have learned that those who stuck into life while in their final days are inclined to suffer more. And those who let it go it seems to be än easy and calm way.
    During covid-19 time it is hard because people have to be separated from the loved ones while in hospital ,maybe dying alone.
    It is useful to take up this issue it is always important as long as we humans exist. Jenkinson speaks as things are.

    Reply
  2. Jim Reynolds says

    May 7, 2020 at 1:48 pm

    Wow – be prepared to stop and also be prepared to be stopped. BRILLIANT!!

    Reply
  3. Kate says

    May 7, 2020 at 2:29 pm

    WOW! Scott, thanks so much for sharing Stephen with us. What a gift!

    Reply
  4. Kate says

    May 7, 2020 at 2:33 pm

    WOW! Scott, thanks so much for the gift of sharing Stephen with us!

    Reply
  5. Fahad Baglain says

    May 7, 2020 at 2:38 pm

    Wooow! This is overwhelmingly filled me with enlightenment. Thank you so much Dr. Miller for being a reason to deliver one the most obvious yet the most subtle messages in my life.

    Reply
  6. samuel a hogg says

    May 7, 2020 at 2:52 pm

    thank you, scott. a lot to chew on. and thank you for your ongoing communications – they mean a lot to me.
    sam

    Reply
  7. samuel a hogg says

    May 7, 2020 at 3:31 pm

    thanks, scott, for this and all you send. you are a channeler and source of wisdom.
    there’s a lot to chew on here.
    sam hogg

    Reply
  8. Gregory Hilliker says

    May 8, 2020 at 2:09 am

    Rich, real, and righteous reframing! Thanks for the thoughtful and thought- provoking conversation.

    Reply
  9. Carol Morgan says

    May 8, 2020 at 6:48 am

    A deep exploration of some very simple ideas that we seem to like to contemplate. Death is part of life, stopping for a moment in our day or for a lengthy time like now is essential. We can take up the challenge of critical thinking about what life we move onto – rather than impatiently waiting to return to how things were. Things that clearly weren”t working – for us individually, our communities and our planet. We all have a choice – do we take the road less travelled – especially now we may have had a small taste of what it looks and feels like.
    Thanks so much for this – was a really wonderful change of pace and focus that I will look to share.and more importantly – live.

    Reply
    • Wendy Amey says

      May 8, 2020 at 4:53 pm

      I rather thought we are being asked to consider that – in Yalom’s words, we simply return from whence we came. Isn’t Stephen talking about the Acceptance of our inevitable death, rather than a constant need to redefine it?

      Reply
  10. Elizabeth Tampe says

    May 8, 2020 at 1:08 pm

    Can you provide the transcript for the ICU physician interview? I tried using CC but it didn’t pick up everything correctly and I can’t catch all of his important words.

    Reply
  11. Phillip Wright says

    May 8, 2020 at 9:15 pm

    OK… I felt a bit thick through much of the interview. Sorry Scott. I think I appreciated much of his commentary… but honestly there were holes in my ability to follow along. I guess I am a more linear thinker. Is there a Cole’s Notes?

    Reply
  12. Phillip Wright says

    May 8, 2020 at 9:18 pm

    Wait… I think that means I’m a big part of the problem…

    Reply
  13. George Laking says

    May 10, 2020 at 1:25 am

    I couldn’t get beyond 4:41 alas. There is a queue for death from Covid-19. At the front of the line are the most disadvantaged of our societies: the dispossessed, the indigenous, those with disabilities or in poor health. Any insight about Covid-19 and mortality must start by acknowledging this basic injustice.

    Reply
  14. George Laking says

    May 10, 2020 at 9:04 pm

    I made a comment that I thought was a type of feedback, but maybe I was too late to get it posted or it wasn’t wanted. That’s too bad, as I’d like to go further with the learnings. But as I said, there’s a significant dimension of justice that is stopping me. I’ve had a copy of Yalom’s book on my shelf for a couple of years, I guess it’s past time I read it. Best wishes to you all.

    Reply

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